I like your calling attention to the main differences between WCE communities' and immigrant communities' expectations when it comes to facing the pressures from the dominant cultures in which each of these other two are trying to function. It's got to be different when you EXPECT that they're going to find you lacking, maybe even laughable, than when you assume that your own superiority ethically will be obvious to all and afford you Hall Passes and privileges you take for granted to be your "right" as the blessed Chosen Ones.
From Brian Hui San Francisco - on my fb page post about this substack
I'd say regarding our expectations/entitlement as immigrants in American, you describe at least my experience well. We weren't surprised that the broader culture was not Chinese, that was never on the table—society reminded us daily the moment we stepped out the door or turned on the TV. My (1st gen) parents learned to navigate the world first, sometimes with bruises. But for us, while some degree of assimilation was taught, at least for my family — it was more about how to navigate the world as minorities; they wanted us to succeed in the white world, but they did not want us to have the morals of whites (e.g. individualistic v family centric; driven by desires v obligation). I'd say were were a bit like the OT Daniel and Esther.
Regarding resentment, I certainly have many friends who resent their immigrant parents. But that is usually more about the layers of shame and family obligation placed on them -- something that is deeply at odds with our Western ethic. It is not resentment that they did not prepare us better for the secular Western world; I mean, how could they have know how to?
Of course, there is lots to critique about the immigrant church and upbringing too.
Btw, I appreciate your deconstruction here of EXvangelical children of CWE. While I understand where the sentiment comes from, it's hard for me to NOT to feel that many are simply jumping boats from one mode of cultural power to the next. I mean, to be anti-conservative, anti-evangelical, anti-"whiteness" (while being white) is absolutely one of the ways of burnishing one's elite credentials today. Ideology!
From Jon Nip - Toronto - on my fb page post about this substack:
So much to unpack here, Fitch! Appreciate you making some thoughtful comparisons between immigrant and WCE churches, especially in response to the shifts in society, move away from Christendom, no longer in being in the center, etc. Coming from and currently being in an immigrant church context, I would say that your observations are fairly accurate, although would need some parsing out between the various generations (1st, 2nd, 3rd, and onward). It was/is our daily lived experiences to feel and be made to feel as the foreigner and other, so we were not formed in the ways of expecting privilege or being part of the dominant & majority society. It will be interesting to see where things will go though as the predictions are that visible minorities will become the majority over the next decades (at least in the two largest cities in Canada). Perhaps history will repeat itself and immigrant communities find ourselves expecting the same privileges (which produces resentment and anger during the shifts) in the future? Time will tell...
For now, immigrant communities don’t hold the type of posture that you’re describing in your observations of WCE. It isn’t inherent and since we are formed by a different dynamic in relations to society, that has undoubtedly shaped our faith as well. I will concur with my esteemed classmate Brian Hui in that navigating being immigrants has brought its own set of tensions and challenges: whether it would be the strong emphasis on cultural preservation from the 1st generation, developing a triple consciousness due to not fitting into any of the ethnic narratives, self-hatred or self-acceptance as a foreigner (particularly 2nd or 3rd generations), conflation of ideologies and religions, degrees of assimilation to be able to succeed/survive (unless you live in a place like Toronto in which the neighbourhood pockets enable one to not have to conform so much!) Not to mention that many immigrant churches have adopted a Euro-tribal imagination and model for churches and tend to attract and serve predominantly those who share their own ethnic background. The list goes on and on… It’s in these areas that anger, frustration, and resentment can occur. Not from a place of entitlement, but from preservation and turning inward to buffer themselves from the dominant culture, leading to its own form of disengagement.
I do agree with you, Fitch, that there can be lots to glean from listening to multiplicity of voices, including immigrant experiences and postures. It disrupts and challenges our paradigms in needed ways. And ideally, I am hopeful like you to consider how we can engage the world as immigrants in a foreign land, following the migration of the Spirit into our lives moving us to migrate into proximity with others (shout out to Amos Yong for this language). It very much is the way of Jesus…
Honestly, I am mystified at the shock from WCE at being the minority. I grew up WCE (overseas most of the time) and every time I was in the US I was in the minority, my values and faith were strikingly different from those around me, and I had to learn to navigate the loneliness. I was in normal midwestern towns. Maybe the difference is that I was always put in public schools?
I like your calling attention to the main differences between WCE communities' and immigrant communities' expectations when it comes to facing the pressures from the dominant cultures in which each of these other two are trying to function. It's got to be different when you EXPECT that they're going to find you lacking, maybe even laughable, than when you assume that your own superiority ethically will be obvious to all and afford you Hall Passes and privileges you take for granted to be your "right" as the blessed Chosen Ones.
From Brian Hui San Francisco - on my fb page post about this substack
I'd say regarding our expectations/entitlement as immigrants in American, you describe at least my experience well. We weren't surprised that the broader culture was not Chinese, that was never on the table—society reminded us daily the moment we stepped out the door or turned on the TV. My (1st gen) parents learned to navigate the world first, sometimes with bruises. But for us, while some degree of assimilation was taught, at least for my family — it was more about how to navigate the world as minorities; they wanted us to succeed in the white world, but they did not want us to have the morals of whites (e.g. individualistic v family centric; driven by desires v obligation). I'd say were were a bit like the OT Daniel and Esther.
Regarding resentment, I certainly have many friends who resent their immigrant parents. But that is usually more about the layers of shame and family obligation placed on them -- something that is deeply at odds with our Western ethic. It is not resentment that they did not prepare us better for the secular Western world; I mean, how could they have know how to?
Of course, there is lots to critique about the immigrant church and upbringing too.
Btw, I appreciate your deconstruction here of EXvangelical children of CWE. While I understand where the sentiment comes from, it's hard for me to NOT to feel that many are simply jumping boats from one mode of cultural power to the next. I mean, to be anti-conservative, anti-evangelical, anti-"whiteness" (while being white) is absolutely one of the ways of burnishing one's elite credentials today. Ideology!
Fitch, you should have us all on a podcast!
From Jon Nip - Toronto - on my fb page post about this substack:
So much to unpack here, Fitch! Appreciate you making some thoughtful comparisons between immigrant and WCE churches, especially in response to the shifts in society, move away from Christendom, no longer in being in the center, etc. Coming from and currently being in an immigrant church context, I would say that your observations are fairly accurate, although would need some parsing out between the various generations (1st, 2nd, 3rd, and onward). It was/is our daily lived experiences to feel and be made to feel as the foreigner and other, so we were not formed in the ways of expecting privilege or being part of the dominant & majority society. It will be interesting to see where things will go though as the predictions are that visible minorities will become the majority over the next decades (at least in the two largest cities in Canada). Perhaps history will repeat itself and immigrant communities find ourselves expecting the same privileges (which produces resentment and anger during the shifts) in the future? Time will tell...
For now, immigrant communities don’t hold the type of posture that you’re describing in your observations of WCE. It isn’t inherent and since we are formed by a different dynamic in relations to society, that has undoubtedly shaped our faith as well. I will concur with my esteemed classmate Brian Hui in that navigating being immigrants has brought its own set of tensions and challenges: whether it would be the strong emphasis on cultural preservation from the 1st generation, developing a triple consciousness due to not fitting into any of the ethnic narratives, self-hatred or self-acceptance as a foreigner (particularly 2nd or 3rd generations), conflation of ideologies and religions, degrees of assimilation to be able to succeed/survive (unless you live in a place like Toronto in which the neighbourhood pockets enable one to not have to conform so much!) Not to mention that many immigrant churches have adopted a Euro-tribal imagination and model for churches and tend to attract and serve predominantly those who share their own ethnic background. The list goes on and on… It’s in these areas that anger, frustration, and resentment can occur. Not from a place of entitlement, but from preservation and turning inward to buffer themselves from the dominant culture, leading to its own form of disengagement.
I do agree with you, Fitch, that there can be lots to glean from listening to multiplicity of voices, including immigrant experiences and postures. It disrupts and challenges our paradigms in needed ways. And ideally, I am hopeful like you to consider how we can engage the world as immigrants in a foreign land, following the migration of the Spirit into our lives moving us to migrate into proximity with others (shout out to Amos Yong for this language). It very much is the way of Jesus…
Also, YES! Let’s podcast sometime!!
Honestly, I am mystified at the shock from WCE at being the minority. I grew up WCE (overseas most of the time) and every time I was in the US I was in the minority, my values and faith were strikingly different from those around me, and I had to learn to navigate the loneliness. I was in normal midwestern towns. Maybe the difference is that I was always put in public schools?